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	<title>Comments on: Counter-terrorism in Somalia, or: how external interferences helped to produce militant Islamism</title>
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	<link>http://africanarguments.org/2009/12/counter-terrorism-in-somalia-or-how-external-interferences-helped-to-produce-militant-islamism/</link>
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		<title>By: Alexander Eichener</title>
		<link>http://africanarguments.org/2009/12/counter-terrorism-in-somalia-or-how-external-interferences-helped-to-produce-militant-islamism/comment-page-1/#comment-18934</link>
		<dc:creator>Alexander Eichener</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Mar 2010 07:26:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://africanarguments.org/?p=752#comment-18934</guid>
		<description>Hoehne has none nothing that would be a big surprise, so Herzog&#039;s ire appears a bit unreasonable - in fact, this (careful and meticulous, and also very nicely prosopographic) analysis does not present anything that would be considered as new in tbe discourse of the region itself (though maybe in some benighted US newsrooms and among Faux News watchers). It fact, the Kenyan online magazine &quot;Kenyaimagine&quot; has printed a short  essay with excatly the same main thrust and main argument already years ago - I daresay it is common knowledge. 

This having been put into perspective, the precise and subtile analysis of Hoehne is insightful, and a further discussion would, in my opinion, gain from two additional widenings of scope:

a) A look further back into the history of Somalia and Italian/British Somaliland. This was not necessary to make the author&#039;s case, so he cannot be criticized for stopping in the early 1990s; but for a deeper analysis of the lingering failure that is Somalia, a much farther-reaching explanation might be helpful. Clichés like &quot;clannism&quot; do not help, since e.g. Muhammad was not deterred nor ultimately hindered by it. The old (colonial and pre-colonial) dichotomy between coastal urban and hinterland rural pastoral societies in Somalia might help to understand the collapse.

b) The ineptitude of US and foreign intervention (too late, too little, too cowardly, AND too heavy-handed) was indeed striking. To quote from Hoehne&#039;s main article: &quot; The events in Somalia in 2006 and afterward were embedded in a brief history of Islamism in Somalia after state collapse that clearly shows the decisive break in 2005/06. The ascent to power of the UIC marked the first time in fifteen years that Mogadishu and much of southern Somalia had been under one rule and mostly peaceful, if only for a few months. Certainly, the U.S. ‘failed to judge the Union [UIC] for its deeds: the stabilization and pacification of one of the world’s most lawless areas. The question is, however, if Washington ever was interested in accurately judging the UIC.&quot;

c) But again, what really is worthwhile, is to show that this was not an individual failure of political decision on a given crisis (crisis in the positive sense), nor a blunder due to rabid ideologically rooted reality-blindness in the White House. Rather, we can see an almost  repetitive pattern if we compare this e.g. to the equally failed US and European policies in case of Angola. Comparable misjudgements based on ideology and myopia, and immeasurable suffering and decades-long mayhem as a result.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hoehne has none nothing that would be a big surprise, so Herzog&#8217;s ire appears a bit unreasonable &#8211; in fact, this (careful and meticulous, and also very nicely prosopographic) analysis does not present anything that would be considered as new in tbe discourse of the region itself (though maybe in some benighted US newsrooms and among Faux News watchers). It fact, the Kenyan online magazine &#8220;Kenyaimagine&#8221; has printed a short  essay with excatly the same main thrust and main argument already years ago &#8211; I daresay it is common knowledge. </p>
<p>This having been put into perspective, the precise and subtile analysis of Hoehne is insightful, and a further discussion would, in my opinion, gain from two additional widenings of scope:</p>
<p>a) A look further back into the history of Somalia and Italian/British Somaliland. This was not necessary to make the author&#8217;s case, so he cannot be criticized for stopping in the early 1990s; but for a deeper analysis of the lingering failure that is Somalia, a much farther-reaching explanation might be helpful. Clichés like &#8220;clannism&#8221; do not help, since e.g. Muhammad was not deterred nor ultimately hindered by it. The old (colonial and pre-colonial) dichotomy between coastal urban and hinterland rural pastoral societies in Somalia might help to understand the collapse.</p>
<p>b) The ineptitude of US and foreign intervention (too late, too little, too cowardly, AND too heavy-handed) was indeed striking. To quote from Hoehne&#8217;s main article: &#8221; The events in Somalia in 2006 and afterward were embedded in a brief history of Islamism in Somalia after state collapse that clearly shows the decisive break in 2005/06. The ascent to power of the UIC marked the first time in fifteen years that Mogadishu and much of southern Somalia had been under one rule and mostly peaceful, if only for a few months. Certainly, the U.S. ‘failed to judge the Union [UIC] for its deeds: the stabilization and pacification of one of the world’s most lawless areas. The question is, however, if Washington ever was interested in accurately judging the UIC.&#8221;</p>
<p>c) But again, what really is worthwhile, is to show that this was not an individual failure of political decision on a given crisis (crisis in the positive sense), nor a blunder due to rabid ideologically rooted reality-blindness in the White House. Rather, we can see an almost  repetitive pattern if we compare this e.g. to the equally failed US and European policies in case of Angola. Comparable misjudgements based on ideology and myopia, and immeasurable suffering and decades-long mayhem as a result.</p>
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		<title>By: Markus Hoehne</title>
		<link>http://africanarguments.org/2009/12/counter-terrorism-in-somalia-or-how-external-interferences-helped-to-produce-militant-islamism/comment-page-1/#comment-17748</link>
		<dc:creator>Markus Hoehne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 22:39:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://africanarguments.org/?p=752#comment-17748</guid>
		<description>Dear Mr Herzog,
maybe some of your outrage at my ‘blindness’ about what – in your view – is ‘really’ going on stems from the fact that you only read the dramatically shortened version of my text posted as &#039;appetizer&#039; on this home page called &#039;african arguments&#039;. If you would have followed the link there to the SSRC homepage, and would have clicked there on the download button to read the full PDF version of my text (30 pages) you would have seen that I dealt at length with the pre-Al Shabaab Islamist dynamics in Somalia. In fact, it was my main aim to situate the phenomenon of Al Shabaab in &#039;history&#039; (of the 1990s and early 2000s) in Somalia. So, if you still would like to check it out, here is the direct link:
 &lt;a href=&quot;http://webarchive.ssrc.org/Somalia_Hoehne_v10.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://webarchive.ssrc.org/Somalia_Hoehne_v10.pdf&lt;/a&gt;
Regarding your other arguments about Numayri, Turabi and al-Bashiir  and the enslaved and impregnated Dinka women (and many others): I do not mean to say that the &#039;others&#039; (call them Islamists, power hungry elites, drug-crazed guerrillas, some of them long-term allies of some Western powers in the past) are &#039;good&#039; (or even &#039;better&#039; than allegedly democratic powers), and certainly I despise those slaughtering and enslaving others, who ever they are. But this was not my point here. My point was that one has to understand militant Islamism in Somalia in its proper historical and political context. This context, I argue, is very much shaped by overt and covert military and other interferences of the USA and Ethiopia (and the scandalous indifference of the EU about all that) since the early 1990s. And these interferences have eventually led to the escalation of militant Islamism in Somalia in its current form. And this form IS (this has to be emphasized) substantially different from all that was there before Al Shabaab. All of this is outlined in great detail in the full version of my paper, with lots of references to some of the most knowledgeable Somalia experts, some of which happen to be American citizens. 
PS: on a rather polemic note: killing dozens of people through missiles and remote controlled drones for the sake of &#039;snatching&#039; one alleged &#039;high profile target&#039; (in Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc.) is in my eyes another form of massacring blindly, not much different from those suicide bombers and other terrorists who also legitimize the killing of dozens of innocents in a strike with the &#039;higher aim&#039; - targeting &#039;the USA&#039; or &#039;the unbelievers&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dear Mr Herzog,<br />
maybe some of your outrage at my ‘blindness’ about what – in your view – is ‘really’ going on stems from the fact that you only read the dramatically shortened version of my text posted as &#8216;appetizer&#8217; on this home page called &#8216;african arguments&#8217;. If you would have followed the link there to the SSRC homepage, and would have clicked there on the download button to read the full PDF version of my text (30 pages) you would have seen that I dealt at length with the pre-Al Shabaab Islamist dynamics in Somalia. In fact, it was my main aim to situate the phenomenon of Al Shabaab in &#8216;history&#8217; (of the 1990s and early 2000s) in Somalia. So, if you still would like to check it out, here is the direct link:<br />
 <a href="http://webarchive.ssrc.org/Somalia_Hoehne_v10.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://webarchive.ssrc.org/Somalia_Hoehne_v10.pdf</a><br />
Regarding your other arguments about Numayri, Turabi and al-Bashiir  and the enslaved and impregnated Dinka women (and many others): I do not mean to say that the &#8216;others&#8217; (call them Islamists, power hungry elites, drug-crazed guerrillas, some of them long-term allies of some Western powers in the past) are &#8216;good&#8217; (or even &#8216;better&#8217; than allegedly democratic powers), and certainly I despise those slaughtering and enslaving others, who ever they are. But this was not my point here. My point was that one has to understand militant Islamism in Somalia in its proper historical and political context. This context, I argue, is very much shaped by overt and covert military and other interferences of the USA and Ethiopia (and the scandalous indifference of the EU about all that) since the early 1990s. And these interferences have eventually led to the escalation of militant Islamism in Somalia in its current form. And this form IS (this has to be emphasized) substantially different from all that was there before Al Shabaab. All of this is outlined in great detail in the full version of my paper, with lots of references to some of the most knowledgeable Somalia experts, some of which happen to be American citizens.<br />
PS: on a rather polemic note: killing dozens of people through missiles and remote controlled drones for the sake of &#8217;snatching&#8217; one alleged &#8216;high profile target&#8217; (in Somalia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq etc.) is in my eyes another form of massacring blindly, not much different from those suicide bombers and other terrorists who also legitimize the killing of dozens of innocents in a strike with the &#8216;higher aim&#8217; &#8211; targeting &#8216;the USA&#8217; or &#8216;the unbelievers&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Herzog</title>
		<link>http://africanarguments.org/2009/12/counter-terrorism-in-somalia-or-how-external-interferences-helped-to-produce-militant-islamism/comment-page-1/#comment-17144</link>
		<dc:creator>Herzog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Mar 2010 23:35:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://africanarguments.org/?p=752#comment-17144</guid>
		<description>Mr. Hoehne, 

you are being disingenious on a number of counts. 

You only mention Al-Shabaab, but ignore the Mah&#039;aakim islaamiyya (Islamic Courts). While the former indeed are mostly a post-intervention phenomenon, the former were there before the Ethiopian army ever crossed into Somalia. Moreover, the IC boasted very publicly that they intended to march into Ethiopia (with the ultimate goal of turning it into an Islamic country even); and they were highly violent at that time already. 

The IC don&#039;t fit your narrative matrix -- large-scale violent Somali Islamism (and there never is a collectively non-violent one; or can you name an example?) only as a reaction to outside intervention -- so you have conveniently chosen to ignore them. 

Islamic totalitarianism a response to &quot;Democratic totalitarianism&quot;? Ah, sure, that&#039;s why, for instance, Numayri, Turabi and al-Bashiir (until recently) opted for culturally exterminating the Southern Sudanese, those powerful agents of &quot;DT&quot;. Now I see the light. The enslaved and impregnated Dinka women should simply not have adopted the cause of the US and its nefarious allies. 

 And of course it makes sense to stone adulterers and adulteresses to death as a tool of resistance to DT. For the same reason, kill Muslims who convert to another or no religion; and artists who (mildly) mock Islam. It&#039;s just what they do in the &quot;DT&quot; states of the West with their converts our of Christianity and with artists who mock Christianity. 

Your ideological blindness and moral equivalency indeed make you a worthy representative of what frequently today passes for social science. I am virtually certain that you have a great future in academia ahead of you. 

Finally, I am greatly encouraged to learn that Iran is now increasingly aligned with the &quot;DT&quot; camp.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mr. Hoehne, </p>
<p>you are being disingenious on a number of counts. </p>
<p>You only mention Al-Shabaab, but ignore the Mah&#8217;aakim islaamiyya (Islamic Courts). While the former indeed are mostly a post-intervention phenomenon, the former were there before the Ethiopian army ever crossed into Somalia. Moreover, the IC boasted very publicly that they intended to march into Ethiopia (with the ultimate goal of turning it into an Islamic country even); and they were highly violent at that time already. </p>
<p>The IC don&#8217;t fit your narrative matrix &#8212; large-scale violent Somali Islamism (and there never is a collectively non-violent one; or can you name an example?) only as a reaction to outside intervention &#8212; so you have conveniently chosen to ignore them. </p>
<p>Islamic totalitarianism a response to &#8220;Democratic totalitarianism&#8221;? Ah, sure, that&#8217;s why, for instance, Numayri, Turabi and al-Bashiir (until recently) opted for culturally exterminating the Southern Sudanese, those powerful agents of &#8220;DT&#8221;. Now I see the light. The enslaved and impregnated Dinka women should simply not have adopted the cause of the US and its nefarious allies. </p>
<p> And of course it makes sense to stone adulterers and adulteresses to death as a tool of resistance to DT. For the same reason, kill Muslims who convert to another or no religion; and artists who (mildly) mock Islam. It&#8217;s just what they do in the &#8220;DT&#8221; states of the West with their converts our of Christianity and with artists who mock Christianity. </p>
<p>Your ideological blindness and moral equivalency indeed make you a worthy representative of what frequently today passes for social science. I am virtually certain that you have a great future in academia ahead of you. </p>
<p>Finally, I am greatly encouraged to learn that Iran is now increasingly aligned with the &#8220;DT&#8221; camp.</p>
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		<title>By: Markus Hoehne</title>
		<link>http://africanarguments.org/2009/12/counter-terrorism-in-somalia-or-how-external-interferences-helped-to-produce-militant-islamism/comment-page-1/#comment-16819</link>
		<dc:creator>Markus Hoehne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Mar 2010 12:19:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://africanarguments.org/?p=752#comment-16819</guid>
		<description>Just to reply to Herzog:
Of course we all are cleverer with the benefit of hindsight. The US administration and its analysts are not different in this regard (look at current analyses of decision taking and interferences concerning Iraq and Afghanistan). In my paper, however, I tried to show exactly that there was a fertile soil for Islamism in Somalia (which is a very wide term which refers to political and socially active agents who refuse violence as well as to those who pursue their political and other visions violently). Yet, it was the Ethiopian and US interventions that added the fertilizer to make the existing movement first, violent, and second, acceptable (from end of 2006 to end of 2008) to large parts of the Somali population that previously did NOT sympathize with militant Islamists, at least. This last point directly translated into crowds of young Somalis giving up their ‘meaningless life’ in a failed state and joining Al Shabaab for a ‘good cause’. This is the reason why we today have about 5000 Al Shabaab fighters and not 2-300 as in 2006. 
 
Regarding Islamic totalitarianism – one could easily argue that this is an answer to ‘democratic totalitarianism’ that anyway only insufficiently disguises economic and geo-political interests of the currently dominating posers – led by the USA, followed suit by European governments, and increasingly played along with by Russia, China, India, Iran and so forth (whose interests of course partly conflict with the interests of the USA and European states). Certainly, not all of the dynamics of Islamic violence always answer ‘Western’ or better: neo-imperial violence. But very often they actually do – beginning with the Mujahediin’s response to the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan, which was greatly aided by the US. 
 
To pretend that neo-imperial politics would not have a very great part in the current mess of Somalia and other violent places such as Iraq, Afghanistan, and maybe soon Yemen etc. would mean to be utterly blind to the consequences of contemporary geo-politics. 
 </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just to reply to Herzog:<br />
Of course we all are cleverer with the benefit of hindsight. The US administration and its analysts are not different in this regard (look at current analyses of decision taking and interferences concerning Iraq and Afghanistan). In my paper, however, I tried to show exactly that there was a fertile soil for Islamism in Somalia (which is a very wide term which refers to political and socially active agents who refuse violence as well as to those who pursue their political and other visions violently). Yet, it was the Ethiopian and US interventions that added the fertilizer to make the existing movement first, violent, and second, acceptable (from end of 2006 to end of 2008) to large parts of the Somali population that previously did NOT sympathize with militant Islamists, at least. This last point directly translated into crowds of young Somalis giving up their ‘meaningless life’ in a failed state and joining Al Shabaab for a ‘good cause’. This is the reason why we today have about 5000 Al Shabaab fighters and not 2-300 as in 2006.<br />
 <br />
Regarding Islamic totalitarianism – one could easily argue that this is an answer to ‘democratic totalitarianism’ that anyway only insufficiently disguises economic and geo-political interests of the currently dominating posers – led by the USA, followed suit by European governments, and increasingly played along with by Russia, China, India, Iran and so forth (whose interests of course partly conflict with the interests of the USA and European states). Certainly, not all of the dynamics of Islamic violence always answer ‘Western’ or better: neo-imperial violence. But very often they actually do – beginning with the Mujahediin’s response to the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan, which was greatly aided by the US.<br />
 <br />
To pretend that neo-imperial politics would not have a very great part in the current mess of Somalia and other violent places such as Iraq, Afghanistan, and maybe soon Yemen etc. would mean to be utterly blind to the consequences of contemporary geo-politics.<br />
 </p>
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		<title>By: Herzog</title>
		<link>http://africanarguments.org/2009/12/counter-terrorism-in-somalia-or-how-external-interferences-helped-to-produce-militant-islamism/comment-page-1/#comment-16232</link>
		<dc:creator>Herzog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 26 Feb 2010 01:13:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://africanarguments.org/?p=752#comment-16232</guid>
		<description>Maybe American and Ethiopian policies towards Somalia were not always the wisest. Can be debated. With hindsight some people become very clever. 

However, the primary actors responsible for Islamic totalitarianism and terrorism running rampant in Somalia are not the Ethiopians and Americans, but the Somalis. Somali Islamic totalitarainism and terrorism was there before the Ethiopian intervention -- in fact it triggered it -- and American missile attacks. 

Moreover, why react to Ethiopian / American actions with Islamic militancy? Why not with other ideologies and actions of resistance? There is no fully deterministic nexus between Ethiopian / American interference and Islamic militancy. The latter is only chosen by people who are already highly prone to such totalitarian thinking and the violent path of action it prescribes. 

There are hierarchies of responsibility and blame which the author conveniently neglects. He focuses exclusively on the secondary, tertiary, quarternary, whatever responsibility/culpability of outsiders, while ignoring the primary responsibility of the local Somali actors. Ultimately, it amounts to little less than a piece of clever Euro social scientist US bashing. 

And what exactly, by the way, is the contribution of stoning &quot;adulterers&quot; or &quot;adulturesses&quot; to resistance against (now absent) Ethiopians or Americans?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Maybe American and Ethiopian policies towards Somalia were not always the wisest. Can be debated. With hindsight some people become very clever. </p>
<p>However, the primary actors responsible for Islamic totalitarianism and terrorism running rampant in Somalia are not the Ethiopians and Americans, but the Somalis. Somali Islamic totalitarainism and terrorism was there before the Ethiopian intervention &#8212; in fact it triggered it &#8212; and American missile attacks. </p>
<p>Moreover, why react to Ethiopian / American actions with Islamic militancy? Why not with other ideologies and actions of resistance? There is no fully deterministic nexus between Ethiopian / American interference and Islamic militancy. The latter is only chosen by people who are already highly prone to such totalitarian thinking and the violent path of action it prescribes. </p>
<p>There are hierarchies of responsibility and blame which the author conveniently neglects. He focuses exclusively on the secondary, tertiary, quarternary, whatever responsibility/culpability of outsiders, while ignoring the primary responsibility of the local Somali actors. Ultimately, it amounts to little less than a piece of clever Euro social scientist US bashing. </p>
<p>And what exactly, by the way, is the contribution of stoning &#8220;adulterers&#8221; or &#8220;adulturesses&#8221; to resistance against (now absent) Ethiopians or Americans?</p>
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		<title>By: Ali Barewa</title>
		<link>http://africanarguments.org/2009/12/counter-terrorism-in-somalia-or-how-external-interferences-helped-to-produce-militant-islamism/comment-page-1/#comment-14063</link>
		<dc:creator>Ali Barewa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 31 Jan 2010 05:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://africanarguments.org/?p=752#comment-14063</guid>
		<description>  There are several factor that put the Somali people in this condition. One is the type of leadership and two standing united. Those two factors are element that is killing the African continent like poison entering heart of a human being without a cure.

  The people of Somalia need to go back to basics. Take a step back, take stock and redirect their anger into more positive approach to get themselves out of this terrible condition they are in. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>  There are several factor that put the Somali people in this condition. One is the type of leadership and two standing united. Those two factors are element that is killing the African continent like poison entering heart of a human being without a cure.</p>
<p>  The people of Somalia need to go back to basics. Take a step back, take stock and redirect their anger into more positive approach to get themselves out of this terrible condition they are in. </p>
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